Building Bridges: Pastors and Music Leaders

[0:00] All right, we've come to the last session where I'm teaching. And what a sweet time this has been.! I just am so always amazed at how the Lord just kind of ties things together.

[0:14] ! And it's really the relationships, really the conversations that you have. And He just makes Himself known in different ways. So He's so kind. This last session is on building bridges, pastors, and music leaders.

[0:27] And then we're going to take a brief break and do a Q&A. And so David is looking through all those Q's right now. And hopefully he's going to have some great A's to respond to them with.

[0:42] So here's the situation. There have been years, decades, really, centuries of history where the leaders of the church, the pastors of the church, have been in conflict with the musicians.

[1:01] And it's for different reasons. Pastors usually have something to do with judgmentalism, sinful judgment. Pastors tend to see musicians as temperamental.

[1:14] Who would have thought? Late, unorganized, non-theological, trendy, unresponsive, proud, etc. Worship leaders, physicians have tended to see their pastors sometimes as controlling, angry, demanding, insensitive, out of touch, over-detailed, non-relational, proud, etc.

[1:38] And in those kinds of situations, we just forget that our worship is not just what we do on Sunday mornings.

[1:53] It's our relationships. The two things that God says we're to do, they have to do with relationship. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.

[2:05] Love your neighbor as yourself. Not get your meeting right. It's important to get our meetings right. We want to strive to do our meetings well.

[2:17] But at the heart of it is the relationships. And if you're married, it's your relationship with your spouse is the primary issue. And then it's you with your kids.

[2:28] And then it's with your church, your pastor, and those you work with. Paul says in Romans 15, he makes it clear that, verses 5 and 6, he makes it clear that God wants us to glorify him, not just in our public ministry, but in the way we relate to one another.

[2:45] He says, may the God of endurance encouragement grant you, so it comes from God, grant you to live in such harmony with one another in accord with Christ Jesus that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[3:04] I have been immensely privileged to serve for almost every part of my life 40 years of pastoral ministry.

[3:18] I've been leading music for 50, but I've been in pastoral ministry for 40. And my relationship with my pastor is on the whole, massively on the whole, been extremely encouraging.

[3:34] It hasn't come without, you know, let me make sure that we're okay here, battery one. I think I am.

[3:45] Are we okay? Yeah. It hasn't come without buddy heads at times and, you know, different issues to talk through, but a lot of these things that I'm going to share have come through things I've seen or heard.

[4:00] You know, people come saying, I've got this situation. What do I do? So if you're an employed musician in a church, like a worship pastor, worship leader, a few years back they did a survey and the average length of time for someone like that was two to three years in a church, which doesn't speak well of what's going on.

[4:22] I don't suspect that's happening here, but it's always good for us to just get a recheck on how are we to think about this. So the way I framed it is, first section is on what pastors wish their worship leaders knew.

[4:36] Second section, what worship leaders wish their pastors knew. And the third section is just how we can work together as a team. So let's begin with what pastors wish their worship leaders knew.

[4:48] And to be completely transparent, these are things your pastor would want you to know if I was your pastor. So your pastor may not be like this, but I suspect that it's true in more cases than not.

[5:04] So I think there are, I think there are how many of these? There are 12 of these, because there's just more to say. Pastors, first, pastors, not worship leaders, will give an account to God for the people in their church.

[5:22] Hebrews 13, 17, obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as though who will have to give an account. Those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy, not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

[5:35] They have to give an account. So to any music leader who is saying, yeah, my pastor wants me to do this, well, you know what? Your pastor has to give an account to God for what he's doing.

[5:46] Once you've expressed your thoughts and shared what you think, if he's still saying, no, I want to do this, okay, he's gonna have to give an account to God for that. So you should gladly submit.

[5:58] Make it a joy for him to do what he's doing. Pastors are ultimately responsible for the song diet and the teaching of the church. So they should know in advance what songs are gonna be sung.

[6:11] The pastor asked me one time, yeah, my worship leader doesn't want to show me the songs in advance, and I said, time out, time out. He should be volunteering to show those to you.

[6:25] You're responsible. You have to give an account. I want you to know what we're going to be singing. And it's not inappropriate at all for a pastor to say, yeah, I'd just like to know in advance and have the freedom to be able to change things if I don't think it's gonna be exactly what it should be.

[6:41] And if you want a pastor's trust, you're gonna have to earn it. Or if you want my trust, you'll have to earn it. It's not like, hey, yeah, just do whatever you want and we'll clean up whatever happens.

[6:53] No, I want to trust you, so you'll have to earn that. So pastors have to give an account to God for the people in the church too. God's word to us matters more than our words to God.

[7:08] Isaiah 66, 2. This is the one to whom I will look, he who is humble and contrite in spirit, and trembles at my word. Now it's true, we share a lot, we speak a lot of words to God.

[7:23] But before we speak any words to God, we have to know he's spoken to us. There are a lot of idle words that get spoken, but are not heard because God has never spoken to the people who said them in the first place.

[7:37] music ministry is a word ministry. It's not just the time when we express everything we want and then the teaching time is the time when we listen.

[7:51] Some people will go to one church for the music and then to another church for the teaching. That's so unhelpful. That's so unwise. Music ministry is a word ministry.

[8:03] We don't want to underestimate the importance, the significance, the effect of proclaiming God's truth, proclaiming God's word passionately. So I'd want you to know your Bible better than your instrument, or at least as well as your instrument.

[8:19] Don't spend hours and hours practicing and give 15 minutes to the word. If I'm your pastor, that's what I'd be saying to you. Lead us to sing the word, to hear the word, to see the word, to pray the word.

[8:35] Your music ministry is a word ministry. Number three, we are what we sing, therefore choose our songs and lyrics wisely. There's an article that came out in late, I think in the 90s, said we are what we sing.

[8:51] Others have said it. We are what we sing. We tend to take on the shape, the formation, the values of what we sing. You're discipling the congregation through your song choices and through the lyrics.

[9:03] And for better or worse, this is always a disappointment to pastors, people will remember the songs more than they'll remember your sermons. No one knows, can quote a John Wesley sermon, I don't think.

[9:16] Everybody knows Hark the Herald Angels Sing. It's because his brother wrote it. And it's a song. Chuck. Chuck Wesley wrote that. Wonder if there was any comparison.

[9:28] No, I think they got along pretty well, John and Charles. So build a repertoire of songs. I'd want you to build a repertoire of songs that express the different aspects of God's glory and character and works and the appropriate responses to them.

[9:46] and make sure we're singing them. We just, we want to, this kind of flows out of the transitions talk. We want to, we want to make people aware of the whole story.

[9:57] And to make them aware of the whole story, we have to sing different kinds of songs. So we don't just sing songs because they're popular. You know, a funny thing has happened over the last 30 years where, and it's probably longer than that, but worship songs have, are like the top 40.

[10:16] You know, because we have the CCLI charts now that tell you what are the most popular songs. We have YouTube that tells us what has the most views and, you know, the people who are the most popular. And those songs may not be the right ones for your church if they're not saying what your church needs to say.

[10:35] So writing a song that's catchy with catchy words is a lot easier than writing a song that your church needs to sing. So I'd say, so think about the diet.

[10:47] Think about the repertoire. Number four, while song introductions can be helpful, you're not the preacher. And this is kind of a balance to what I shared earlier.

[11:00] Your primary role is to enable the word of Christ to dwell in us richly, not to preach that word of Christ. So when you're going to give a, you know, some kind of instruction between the songs, generally less is going to be more.

[11:16] Generally. Now you may be someone who doesn't say anything and your pastor is going to say more. Okay, great. But generally, for a musician, to start talking is to walk into trouble.

[11:29] It's often happened. We've seen it. And typically, less is more. Choose great songs and you won't have to say as much. Choose great songs.

[11:40] Number five, but we're going to get through this fairly quickly, which we'll leave more time for Q&A. Prayers are corporate conversations with God, not filler.

[11:53] Prayers are corporate conversations with God, not filler. Don't pray just because you feel awkward or don't know what to do. Yeah, they're not space fillers.

[12:07] They are engaging with God. Use your prayers to speak for the congregation, not just yourself. It's always a little bit awkward when the person in front is just talking to God about, God, I just love you so much.

[12:20] Lord, just thank you for being with us. Lord, you're just so amazing. It's like, there's like a whole crowd of people in the room and we're just listening in on this prayer. We're praying for the congregation, so we want to think corporately, congregationally.

[12:35] It's an opportunity to model what theologically informed, biblically rooted, Christ-exalting prayer looks like. So yeah, to write it out, great.

[12:46] But the better thing would be to know the Lord so well and to be so attentive to what you're doing that it just flows out of you, that you're able to interact in that moment.

[12:57] And this is just an extra. Don't mix up members of the Trinity and don't pray as though God has forgotten his name. Lord, we just thank you, Father, Lord Jesus, for the Holy Spirit.

[13:11] Thank you, Lord, for just being with us, Lord. Father, thank you for dying on the cross for us and we're just so grateful, Spirit, that you, Father, didn't die on the cross for us, Jesus did.

[13:22] That's an important distinction. Just things like that. But I hear prayers like that and just go, just slow down. Just slow down. Think about what you're saying. You know, when we read, I was just reading Thessalonians, where the writers are so specific about the members of the Trinity.

[13:45] Listen to what Paul says. We give thanks to God always for you, constantly mentioning you in our prayers, remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

[14:02] For we know, brothers, loved by God that he has chosen you because our gospel came to you not only in word but also in power and with the Holy, in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction.

[14:14] So he's just talking to them about, you know, the fact that I'm praying for you and these are the things I'm praying, this is what we know. And he mentions all three persons of the Trinity. You know, may the, I always get this wrong so I'm not going to try it.

[14:32] May, in the 2nd Corinthians, here it is right here, may the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

[14:45] 2nd Thessalonians, it says, may our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace. You know, it's like, what is this?

[14:56] Well, they're recognizing that God is triune. He's Father, Son, and Spirit. And if you haven't read Delighting in the Trinity, by Michael Reeves, you should read it. It says, a very helpful book about remembering why it's so good and delightful that God is Father, Son, and Spirit.

[15:14] All right, number, where are we at? Six. Your job is to support congregational singing, not overwhelm or overpower it. So, as I'm telling my musicians, Ephesians 5, 19, we're addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.

[15:31] If we can't hear ourselves, it's hard to address each other. We're not just here to listen to you. You know, when someone's leading a song on a microphone, they don't have to be on that microphone the entire song, especially if the congregation knows it really well.

[15:44] It's not like we've come to hear your voice. We've come to hear each other's voices. That's a different perspective. Make sure your sound person knows the value of the congregation's voice.

[15:57] Don't assume the instrumentalists have to play constantly. You know, if we're up here on stage, we should be playing. No, that's not true. You can take a break. Sometimes the best thing you can do is take a break.

[16:07] How can I contribute? Take a break. That's not what I was looking for. I know. I know it's not what you're looking for, but really, you will add more if you play less. it's kind of counterintuitive.

[16:19] Pull back from your vocal mic sometimes. Stop playing your instruments sometimes. Let us sing a cappella. That's what I'd be saying to my music guy. Number seven, truth matters more than tunes, but that doesn't mean we should sing great theology to bad melodies or bad accompaniment.

[16:39] So the music does matter. Choose songs the congregation can enjoy singing and can sing. And occasionally mix up the arrangement. Change the arrangement, the feel, the tempo, so the congregation can hear the lyrics in a fresh way.

[16:55] We are really about what are these songs saying? What should we be thinking about? And if you do a song the exact same way every time you do it, that will be a little harder to figure out.

[17:06] Number eight, keys that serve the congregation are better than keys that make you sound good. Yeah, that's Philippians 2, 3, and 4. Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourself.

[17:24] Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Some churches where, you know, if a guy leads, it's in this key. If a girl leads, it's in this key. And that may be true like within a step or so, but not like when it's a fourth or a fifth difference.

[17:40] You know, when a guy sings, it's in G. When a girl sings, it's in D. No, you're a poor congregation. You know, the one is too high, the other's too low. Let's find that middle spot where you may not sound as your very possible American Idol best, but the congregation will be able to enjoy singing it.

[18:01] So generally, that falls within a range of an A to a D. Generally, there are exceptions, but if you're singing a lot of Ds, your women are probably dying.

[18:13] And if you're singing low Gs, low Fs, your guys are not going to be able to, they're not going to be able to sing with passion. It's just not there. So just try to find that sweet spot of a song that lies within that range.

[18:30] Yeah, we don't compare to listen to you sing, but lift up our voices. Yeah, if you do have a higher voice, then use that voice to fill in between lines. If you're the leader, don't sing harmony all the time because that's confusing to your people.

[18:46] But if, you know, and as he stands in victory, as he stands, or whatever, you know, do something, not like that, but do something that's in between the lines that will encourage people as they're singing the song.

[19:03] Not to show off, but to augment or draw attention to the content of what we're singing. So, yeah, as the congregations get weary if they have to sing a lot of high D's and E's.

[19:17] Although there are exceptions to this. The song Praise, it's like number two or three on CCLI. I've got a reason to praise the Lord.

[19:28] I mean, it's a great song, but that's a high A in the original song. It's a high A. And it's a fun song, and, you know, but I just couldn't lead that song because it's got a wide range as well, so if you bring it down, it's just hard to make it all work together.

[19:48] If your congregation is all 20-somethings, they'll probably do great. All right, number nine, don't teach us so many new songs that we never learn them and so few new songs that we fail to benefit from them.

[20:04] All right, so there's that tension. Don't do so many new songs that we never have the time to learn them and don't do so few new songs that we fail to benefit from them. Years ago, I used to try to teach two new songs every month, 24 songs a year.

[20:19] That, I don't know how we did that. I don't know why we did that, but we did it, and it seemed to work for a couple years. But now, we probably teach 10 songs, maybe.

[20:31] Some of those we do once, but a lot of them we do because we want to inject them into the repertoire of the church. So yeah, it varies.

[20:43] You know, learning two, three songs every couple months is doable. Learning four songs a month isn't. And the problem is we have access to so many songs now, don't we? There, I just did this research recently.

[20:58] I forget how many worship songs are being uploaded a year. Oh, I want to say something like 2,500. But, well, maybe it was 1,000 a month, which would be 24,000.

[21:15] It's a lot. It's a lot. You can't do all those songs. And not all those songs are really great. A lot of them have some good things in them.

[21:27] Let's sing the really great songs. We do about 110 songs a year total for any given calendar year. That's because there's 52 weeks, you'll probably repeat half of them.

[21:42] So we do five songs a Sunday, typically. And 52 weeks, that's 260 songs. We do half of them twice. That's right, now you've got 130.

[21:55] 130 songs that you're doing. And then do some of them three times, well, that's probably down to 110. So we do about 110 songs a year. We can be really choosy about what we do. So don't do so many new songs people can't remember, but don't do so few that people don't benefit.

[22:11] There's a really, really great song that fits into what your church is learning, or a song that they just should sing. So when Yet Not I came out, I thought, this is the song I want to sing.

[22:22] This is going to serve our church for years and years. So I just looked for a time that would be right to introduce it. Because every song says something, and you want to incorporate, again, think about transitions, you want to incorporate it in a time when it makes sense, not just because it's a great song.

[22:39] Number 10, blaming sin on being a musician doesn't make it any less sinful. moodiness, oversensitivity, procrastination, pride, irresponsibility, and laziness aren't due to being a musician.

[22:55] They're due to indwelling sin. And it's not generally helpful when musicians just hang around with other musicians because we can all cover for ourselves.

[23:07] Yeah, of course you're like, yeah, I get it, I get it, get to know non-musicians in your church. Be a part of a small group that's not just musicians. Always discourage musical small groups.

[23:19] I mean, you know, this is going to be our small group, the band. I don't think you'll, because we just start to think everybody thinks like us. It's not true. People have problems for the same reasons we do, they're just, they're different problems.

[23:32] The roots are the same. And I expect you to tell me if there's anything in your life that would make what you're doing disqualifying. It would disqualify you for what you're doing. I would expect that of a musician, especially a leader.

[23:45] Number 11, your goal isn't leading. Your goal in leading isn't performing, but pastoring and participation. That's shepherding, you might say. If the people in your church generally aren't singing, then you're, what you're doing is probably more performing than leading congregational worship.

[24:05] And you want to aim to shepherd their souls, not put on a show. Your job isn't done just because you practiced. You know, we practiced for two hours this week. Okay, that's great, excellent.

[24:17] Your job is to shepherd people to sing, to give them reasons to sing when we gather. Reasons churches don't sing include range. We talked about that.

[24:28] Melody being too difficult, the band being too loud, too many new songs, the arrangements too complicated or too new. Yeah, there are just a lot of reasons.

[24:39] We just want to make sure that whosoever up here is encouraging people to sing by portraying Christ in all his glory to them through the words we're singing and the scriptures we're reading.

[24:51] And leading with your eyes open most of the time will communicate your care and also help you gauge how people are responding. So if I had a leader who was like this all the time, all the time, I would say, open your eyes, look at us, let us know you're happy to be here.

[25:08] Let us know that we are doing this together. That's a good thing to communicate. And then finally for the pastors, ultimately, or for the music leaders, ultimately Christ is our worship leader, not you.

[25:21] I just want you to know that. You don't have to feel the pressure to bring us into the throne room because you can. Jesus has already done that. Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain that is through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near.

[25:44] It's open. The way is open. We're in Christ. We're seated in the heavenly places. We're just reminding people. So don't feel pressure about leading us. I don't want you to come in with this anxiety as you're leading the congregation.

[25:57] It's a joy. It's a privilege. It's what an opportunity to let people know how glorious Christ is. And the more you point us to what Christ has done and is doing for us, the less will see you.

[26:12] So those are some of the things that I want my worship pastor to know. Now let's flip it and say, if I am the music leader, the worship pastor, what would I want my pastor to know?

[26:26] I think there are 10 of these. Yeah. Oh, 11. Okay. I must have added one. All right. Communication in advance makes for a more unified, edifying meeting.

[26:39] Just let me know ahead of time something of what's coming really helps me. Not figure out the meeting, you know, Saturday night as you get your message to me.

[26:51] and I'm trying to put everything together. I'd rather know what you want before the meeting than after the meeting. Now that requires the musician getting the stuff to the pastor before the meeting, but I'd rather know what you want before the meeting rather than after the meeting.

[27:09] The earlier I know you're preaching, for us, the better we can prepare the last song. Although we have a very flexible thing going there. you know, I'll send out the liturgy, maybe we talk about this in Q&A, but on Tuesday afternoon generally, and then I'll say to this preacher, hey, if you have a better last song, let me know.

[27:30] And then sometimes they'll email me Saturday or sometimes Sunday morning and sometimes we'll just show up and say, okay, we're not doing that song. And then sometimes it'll come in the last 10 minutes of the message and we'll realize the song we pick is not the right song.

[27:45] And I'll just text everybody in the group and we have an admin, Amanda, who's just amazing. We'll say, Amanda, we're doing this song and the projectionist gets it. Everybody gets it. And then we come up and as the pastor's praying, she just distributes that paper and all everybody's, you know, music stand and then we just do the song.

[28:06] And it works. You know, we don't use like iPads and stuff. That'd make it easier, I guess. but our goal is to sing songs that are going to fit, that are relevant, that are a right response to the message.

[28:24] Yes, so church will be better served if we've coordinated what we're going to do in advance. The way we do this is we plan on Tuesday, put the whole thing together and then send it out and then any pastors can get back to me if they think that something should be different, want something changed, want something added.

[28:43] Sometimes a guy will say, hey, can I do this scripture instead? You know, and then we arrive Sunday and things might change during the week.

[28:53] Oh, we have this testimony we forgot about or we're having a baptism. Once I plan, we plan a Sunday and then we found out we're doing communion. Oh, okay, great, let's just change that.

[29:04] But we're trying to be intentional in our planning but then also be open to changes. Our plan's not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit helps us plan, plan's not the Holy Spirit.

[29:16] Two, consistent and specific encouragement and evaluation will make me a better leader. Consistent and specific encouragement and evaluation will make me a better leader.

[29:29] And I have been blessed to have had a senior pastor for almost 30 years who has modeled this.

[29:43] I remember the early years when I first moved to a church in Maryland where C.J. Mahoney was the senior pastor. He would pull me aside after the meeting every week and just say, hey, this was really great.

[29:56] This was really great. This is, I really appreciate when you repeat that chorus. And then a couple things that maybe could do better. Don't do this. Some of those things have stayed with me for decades. He shared them. It wasn't complicated.

[30:07] It wasn't heavy. It was just, yeah, I think this could be better. And what it did was teach me how to discern. Taught me, like, okay, oh, I felt that that was too long when I shared that.

[30:20] And he said, yeah, that went a little long. Oh, great. So when I feel it's going too long, it's probably going too long. Don't have to wonder. Nah, they're not going to notice. Yeah, they will. They're noticing. Some are falling asleep.

[30:31] Um, I will thrive and grow if I know what things I'm doing that are serving you in the church. Great job is better than saying nothing, but not as good as telling me what was helpful and how I could improve.

[30:48] And when you say helpful, it's, you know, how was God working through me today? What was, what was, what was happening? Um, CJ does that to this day.

[30:59] He, he comes up, I mean, he'll give the benediction, dismiss the, uh, church, and then he'll turn around and he'll thank everybody in the band.

[31:11] It's just amazing. And then he'll, he'll often walk over and just share specific things with people. You know, that last song was just so right and here's the reason why it was right. He didn't have to do that.

[31:23] But man, it sure makes, it sure makes me know, okay, he's noticing, that was helpful. Um, I'm happy to serve here. That's what it does. It just, it, it just tells you, um, it tells the, the music leader that they're seeing, that they're appreciated, they're valued, and when you give them evaluation, it tells them how they can grow.

[31:50] And again, it's, if we don't treat those things as heavy conversations, but just as, hey, you know, it'd be more helpful if you did this. That, it just makes it so much easier.

[32:02] Saying nothing for long periods of time tempts me to think that what I do is unimportant, wrong, or unnecessary. So there should be an ongoing conversation. Number three, God intended singing to be a means of teaching and admonishing.

[32:14] So this is to balance out before. What I do is more than a warm-up for the sermon. Singing's not just a warm-up for the sermon. It's not just to fill the time.

[32:25] It's not just to get people emotionally excited. It is a word ministry. And you will serve me, yourself, the church, and most importantly, the Lord, if you care as much about the words we sing as the words you preach.

[32:39] So I want you to care about what we're singing. And by the way, your favorite song might not be the best song for the church to sing. And a song that you might not really like might really bless the church.

[32:52] So we have these conversations on my pastoral team where there'll be certain songs that two of my pastor's friends call happy clappy songs. And that is how they do it.

[33:06] And I say, yeah, it always looks awkward when you do it like that. But I've never seen anybody in our congregation do that. They're all singing the songs wholeheartedly.

[33:17] And we joke around a lot about it. Number three, God intended singing to be a means of teaching in a monastery. I just did that. Number four, your example and engagement when we sing says volumes not only about your support of me but about your heart to praise God with the church.

[33:35] So when the singing's happening, don't be looking at your notes the entire time. Don't be looking distracted. Don't be folding your arms and just kind of checking things out. Humanly speaking, the pastor is the leader of the congregational worship and people rarely rise above the example of their pastor.

[33:55] They can but it's not normal. Number five, I need your trust to lead effectively. So we're partners not competitors. I'll lead better if I know I have your support.

[34:07] If there are reasons you can't trust me, let me know. I want your leadership and input but micromanaging what I do tends to negatively affect my desire to take initiative.

[34:20] So this is a relationship I have with CJ. So I've known him for 50 years so there's a little bit of trust built there. But we'll talk about something and say, well I think it could go this way and I say, well I think it could go this way and he said, what about this?

[34:34] And he said, well you know what, you're the leader, you make the decision. That's like a, wow really? Yeah, we've talked about it, you know where I am, I know where you are, you know, when you get to that moment you make the decision.

[34:46] That's huge. You know for him to say, I trust you with this. So if I don't have your trust, tell me how I can earn it. Number six, you don't have to be musically trained to help me do what I do better.

[35:01] A lot of pastors they check out because well I don't have any music theory training, I never took an instrument, I can barely sing. That's okay. That doesn't mean you can't tell me how to pastor a congregation or how to communicate effectively or how to make theological connections and if something doesn't feel right to me, just tell me, we'll figure out what it is, just tell me in your words and we'll get to the bottom of what I can do to change that will solve that problem.

[35:28] But don't just check out because you say, well I'm not musical. I might have to work hard to understand what you're saying, you might use phrases and words that initially sound to me like what, what, hey, but if I ask you more I can get to the bottom of what you're feeling and there may be something there for me to learn.

[35:46] Number seven, it would benefit our relationship and the church if we occasionally did things together like go to a conference, like read a book, like read an article, pray together.

[35:59] I don't want to undermine you by leading in areas you aren't fully convinced, don't understand or haven't thought about. I want us to be on the same page in this.

[36:10] My ministry will be more effective if I know your heart for this church, if I know your vision and I need and want your perspectives on topics or areas that are popular in worship conversations of the church.

[36:26] So, you know, we're surrounded by this world of thoughts and ideas and opinions and they're just everywhere. Well, I would love to know what you think about them. that will help me as I make decisions.

[36:38] A lot of times these conversations just aren't happening. So, if you're a musician and your pastor is not having them, it would help you and help him to say, hey, let's talk about some of these things.

[36:48] Let's watch this YouTube video. What do you think about that? Let's read this article. What do you think about that? And just come to a consensus of where the church should be led. Number eight, when you encourage and pay attention to the band members, you build trust.

[37:02] I kind of commented on that with CJ's encouragement. We thrive in an atmosphere of encouragement and your words of thanks carry more weight than you know.

[37:13] Another thing a pastor can do is reference songs that have been sung in the meeting. You know how we just sang? You know how we just sang? That just gives people the awareness that, oh, we're doing the same thing here.

[37:26] Like, we're singing these truths, now we're just hearing about them from the word. But it's the same thing. Number ten, if I'm a volunteer, I may not have time to do everything you want me to do.

[37:38] Oh, actually, I skipped number nine. If I'm full-time, I'd rather know you as a pastor and friend than a manager or a supervisor if I'm full-time. The occasional meal, email, question about my life goes a long way towards building trust.

[37:55] You can think of me as an employee if you like, but Jesus is building a church, not a business. And I'd love to be a friend to you, a supportive friend to you.

[38:06] And if you give me significant responsibility in leading the church each Sunday, it's to your advantage to know me well. All right, number ten, if I'm a volunteer, I may not have time to do everything you want me to do.

[38:21] If I'm not a full-time staff member, you may need to lower your expectations in terms of what I can actually accomplish. I want to serve you and the church, so I may need help keeping my family a priority.

[38:35] Because, you know, some volunteers do too much, but other volunteers, there's too much expected of them. So again, conversations help work that out.

[38:46] How much can you actually give? I had a guy email you years ago and just say, yeah, I orchestrate our songs for the church. I just found out my wife had cancer. And so I'm struggling with, like, how can I keep this thing going with the church?

[38:58] How can I keep doing the orchestrations and take care of her? I just emailed right back and said, I'm not sure I didn't say it like this, but God couldn't care less about your instrumentations, your orchestrations.

[39:09] Care for your wife. Those don't make the meaning. And you'd be surprised how often we develop these ways of thinking where the lesser important things become really important to us.

[39:23] let's always be going back and checking what are the most important things? What are the most important things? So if I'm a part-time leader, I will need your help in understanding where my priorities should be.

[39:38] Number 11, including good sound, projection, and lighting in the budget is really helpful. Communicates your support and serves the church. Things wear out, things break, technology improves.

[39:51] we can get more for less than ever before, and some issues can only be solved by spending money. And that's just a reality. With sound, instruments, yeah, that's what happens.

[40:07] Challenge me if you think my goals are unrealistic, but let's at least have a conversation. And again, depending on the individual circumstance, that conversation may look very different. You have musicians who never even give a thought to it, and then you have musicians who want every new latest gadget that's out there.

[40:27] And then you have pastors. Usually pastors aren't, well, they just don't want to spend a lot of money. That's kind of the general category. And so just having that conversation, we just went through a thing at our church where we had a, there's a brother in the Sovereign Church in Pennsylvania who runs a sound company.

[40:46] He had a set of speakers that he wasn't able to, he was going to install them in a building and they didn't need them after all, couldn't get them.

[40:57] So he said, hey, can I install them in your building and you can just kind of have them there to try out. And maybe you could either rent them or pay for them eventually.

[41:10] He was just kind of vague about it. And I said, well, yeah, sure, if you want to install some new speakers in our building, great. That we don't have to be committed to to buy, yeah, I'm all in.

[41:26] So a couple years went by and actually installed one more speaker after that. And it turns out he had been waiting for a couple big jobs to come through and he was intending to give them to us.

[41:37] and those jobs didn't come through. So he emailed me and said, hey, you know, this is what happened.

[41:48] These jobs didn't come through. So could we establish some kind of, you know, payback plan? And so then I brought it to the elders. So this would be seven other guys and said, hey, this is the deal.

[42:02] This is what he's asking. And, you know, could we manage some kind of, you know, payment per month? And someone suggested, hey, why don't we just take it from, we have a building fund.

[42:15] Why don't we just take it from the building fund and give them the whole amount and then give them like, you know, $3,500 extra. And I can't tell you how happy that email made me feel.

[42:26] It's like, wow. And I can't tell you how happy it made the guy feel when he got my response. Hey, we're not only not paying you back month to month, we're paying you the whole thing and we'll give you an extra $3,500.

[42:42] But it was that kind of leaning forward to the guy saying, yeah, these are serving us. Yeah, this serves the preacher, it serves the music, and we want to bless this guy.

[42:54] Isn't that that heart of the gospel? It's just always giving, giving. You know, the Lord Jesus, for our sake he became poor so that we might become rich through him. Not in a financial sense, but in a way that we know that in all things at all times he will provide all that we need so that we might be generous to others.

[43:13] So it was just a wonderful recent experience. Okay, benefits of being a team, and then we're going to sing a song, I think, that has nothing to do with this, but we are going to sing one song.

[43:26] Take a quick break and then do a Q&A. One, more gets done when you're a team. It's just more gets done. Ecclesiastes 4, 9 and 10, two are better than one because they have a good reward for their toil.

[43:41] For if they fall, the one will lift up his fellow, but woe to him who is alone when he falls and has not another to lift him up. It really is better.

[43:54] Any kind of ministry that you're in right now, if you're full-time, if you're thinking about becoming full-time, if you're a volunteer, if you're just a member of the team, any kind of work you're doing to serve the church is better with someone else.

[44:06] We're just not doing this to get a name for ourselves, to impress everybody with our skills. We get to do it together because of what the Lord Jesus has done for us.

[44:18] Two, another benefit, you have multiple perspectives. No one gets it right all the time. And you want to work together to determine what's best.

[44:29] I mean, I've been doing this for a long time. And so I can slip into the mentality of, well, you know, I teach on this stuff. You know, of course I'm always right.

[44:42] You know what Proverbs says about a man who's always right in his own eyes? There's more hope for a fool than for him. See, a man who's wise in his own eyes, there's more hope for a fool than for him. Whoever trusts his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.

[44:55] Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and shrewd in their own sight. I have these in my mind and heart because I am so prone to being wise in my own eyes.

[45:08] And we don't want to be wise in our own eyes. Work together to determine what's best. This is a quote from Alan Ross's book, Recalling the Hope of Glory, which if you want a theology on worship in the Old Testament, fantastic.

[45:22] It's called Recalling the Hope of Glory by Alan Ross. He says, there is so much in the Bible about worship activities that there is no reason for any church to limit itself to a set pattern that appeals to only one segment of the congregation.

[45:39] Worship in the Bible in both Testaments was varied in form, content, purpose, and mood. If the church wants to draw out the richness of worship, it will strive for greater variation within the proper forms, and a greater balance in structured and free worship.

[45:57] In other words, saying, if you do it just like the pastor wants or just like the worship leader wants, that's probably not going to be the best situation. You need perspectives of both, and probably more people, to really do what is going to be best for the church.

[46:11] And finally, of course, God receives more glory when we're working together, when we're working with the people around us. The worship of God in your church is not ultimately dependent on a worship leader or the pastor, but on God's grace, working through humble servants who would desire his glory above all.

[46:29] So we end with this. May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another in accord with Christ Jesus that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[46:47] Father, we thank you for the opportunity to consider these things. We pray that you would enable us by your spirit to enjoy the things that you have given us, the opportunities you have given us, and to make us more easy to work with.

[47:14] Father, would you do that for your glory? We pray in Jesus' name. Amen.